tegger
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Welcome to this sanctuary. Hogithum Hall has been sealed and will open no more. Here you may rest and recover from this exceedingly trying day, and reflect upon all the astounding events that we all witnessed.
For my part, I am currently too stunned to speak. I'll have to think on these things a while.
(OOC: Thanks to each of you who participated!) 
Edit: For those who missed it, you can start at the beginning and follow the entire saga from there. 
--------------------
Everyone always overgeneralizes everything entirely too much.
~TSL )O(
Edited by tegger (03/23/04 05:24 PM)
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Disciple
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*With Vehk gone, B's weeping has stopped. He stands up and shakes his head.*
Now, I have seen everything. Well played, to all involved! Well played!
--------------------
~B
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library
Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer
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When the Egg breaks you will know what Bird laid it. That is all.
*walks out of the Hall... needless to say, laughing quite madly.*
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Best puns in town!
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*feels very faint and before looking, puts a hand down to catch herself on a nearby table* *her hand slides on a small pile of intestines and she crashes to the floor*
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Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?
Morrowind Avatars
Chatroom!
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* The crystal glows even brighter*
* He looks around and twists a ring on his now clawed hand*
*Hissing* "Oh NO, there is still THE DRAGON to face*
* The room shifts and a moment is an eternity*
*Disapears*
*Where he stood there is a crystal with a shape of a dragon inside*
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Deh'kohn Rotherane shakes his head, trying to sort out the events. "Does someone have a record of the events that happened before I arrived, that I might study them?"
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"The past is but the beginning of a beginning, and all that is and has been is but the twilight of the dawn."
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MK
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Thanks so much for playing along and pretty much making Elder Scrolls fans the coolest, smartest, canniest CRPG fans anywhere.
You guys rock.
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tegger
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Creepy ShadowLady
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And thank you, too. 
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Everyone always overgeneralizes everything entirely too much.
~TSL )O(
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Attrebus
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You rock Mr Kirkbride! Don't think ill of me for trying to stop proceedings. My conscience would not be clear if I did not.
Bravo!
-Attrebus
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Remember the 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk.
A day devoted to Scholarly Pursuits and Truth.
And Stri'Ker, who died for these - May he be remembered always.
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Freddo
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Patriarch
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Thanks for a very enjoyable lurking experience! 
--------------------
Hall of Torque Remember the fishysticks! Morrowind Chat
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Nigedo
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Diviner
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Cheers Michael, and all. Thanks for being the best CRPG developers and fan boys and girls the world over.  
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Solin
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I must say, that was great even though I lurked for the most part.
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"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
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Nazz
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Disciple
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As selfish as ever, and no big surprise, Vehk has left us for good.
I must say on this night my red eyes glow with the satisfaction that Azura finaly got what it deserved.
EDIT: No, thank you MK, that was truly a treat for all involved.
--------------------
The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
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LDones
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MK: I wasn't sure if it was you. I'm very glad it was.
Fun.
--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
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B
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Disciple
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Quote:
Thanks so much for playing along and pretty much making Elder Scrolls fans the coolest, smartest, canniest CRPG fans anywhere.
You guys rock.
Same to you, MK. Good luck in all that you do.
--------------------
~B
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library
Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer
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Yeah
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Curate
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Thanks for your work on making the games so excellent that the coolest, smartest, canniest CRPG fans all like it.
But, will any of this stuff show up in the next game (if you're allowed to tell us))?
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Professor: The only thing I don't like about those governments is that they want to give all of our taxes away to the less-fortunate.
Fry: Yeah! The less-fortunate get all the breaks!
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Varana
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I concur.
Though only lurking, this was a remarkable experience.
Thanks to all those participating.
--------------------
Rigid, unbending:
Law's dominion eternal -
Order triumphant!
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Well done! Who'll let me buy them a drink? Nordic mead, fresh from Solstheim!
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tegger
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Creepy ShadowLady
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Quote:
Well done! Who'll let me buy them a drink? Nordic mead, fresh from Solstheim!
I'll gladly volunteer for that one.
--------------------
Everyone always overgeneralizes everything entirely too much.
~TSL )O(
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If it truly be Vehk's last word on this matter so much the better.
The Thief asks we bear him no ill will for his use? Too long did I attend this Trial in patient silence to be silent now.
I name this Tribunal sycophantic and craven. Spectators of the Hall assumed, in apparently foolishness, that Azura was summoned in good faith to give testimony as to Vehk's crimes, not to be the victim of a cruel metaphysical rape at the hands of an egotistical demigod.
Instead when Vehk makes brutish display of his stolen godhood, Mastery and Mercy stare and grin at the display, as starry-eyed, awed children.
Stri'ker died in Azura's name? He died in an attempt to discover the truth as to Vehk's guilt or innocence. Now, thanks to the Thief's flippancy, his death is in vain.
*Leaves the Hall drawing his Ebony Broadsword
*You hear him rending the very earth and rocks in his frustration.
OOC: ok, it was seriously cool.. but.. what? that's it?
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Attrebus
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Yeah, I'll have two.... being attacked by scribs and weaping blood really takes it out of you!
--------------------
Remember the 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk.
A day devoted to Scholarly Pursuits and Truth.
And Stri'Ker, who died for these - May he be remembered always.
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Archeopterix
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*comes to, to find her hands clean of blood* *wonders which parts of it were a dream, and which parts were a nightmare*
Thanks for this
--------------------
Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?
Morrowind Avatars
Chatroom!
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I could never convey my thanks adequately. Let this be a lesson to those who have been begging for a multiplayer TES4! 
And thank you as well for allowing me to cause so much *official* chaos
--------------------
Best puns in town!
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Not quite what I expected but lest I forget...I must say, Thank you MK for such a treat.
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Who I am does not matter for I am naught but the essence of what has gone and come as well as the void that protrudes from the depths of one's being.
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Was his death in vain? Some long-due revenge was had, and Striker helped it along.
--------------------
Professor: The only thing I don't like about those governments is that they want to give all of our taxes away to the less-fortunate.
Fry: Yeah! The less-fortunate get all the breaks!
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B
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Disciple
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Yeah, I'll take a couple of drinks, too. All that crying tires you out. I have to replace some fluids like Stri...urr...I mean Attrebus.
--------------------
~B
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library
Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer
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LDones
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Quote:
ok, it was seriously cool.. but.. what? that's it?
I kind of expected it all to culminate in an Announcement from Bethesda of some sort, but it was a really great diversion nonetheless.
Kirkbride's work in ES lore is really staggeringly brilliant - I don't know how much actual research into real-world magical systems he's done, but it's all there, and God Bless him and Bethesda for keeping so many imagination-fires stoked.
I have a few questions myself about what actually happened, but I'm gonna let 'em gestate a bit. Very rewarding.
--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
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My master, Stri'Ker, died to discover the truth. I think the events shown this day revealed to true colours of Vehk!
--------------------
Remember the 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk.
A day devoted to Scholarly Pursuits and Truth.
And Stri'Ker, who died for these - May he be remembered always.
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Vireyar
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You mean previous threads? There are these three:
The Judgment of Vivec
Hogithum Preparations
Hogithum Hall II
And Master D'Onus (who has all my sympathy for the effort he put into his page) archived a list of questions etc. for Azura, which has since been replaced by Vehk's confession.
Well-done to all involved! Completely unexpected ending that was obviously well thought-out. As for mead, please. Now I wonder: how long before someone turns these events into a plugin?
--------------------
Greater Dwemer Ruins - more rusted cogs, homocidal Animunculi and neon lights than you can shake a stick at.
GDR Aleft - You can't expect it to not be flooded, really.
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Peace, Attrebus. Did we not learn the truth? Vehk is guilty beyond question, a thief in bone and blood, and a murderer as well. And far, far beyond our ability to catch and punish. Which, thank the heavens, is not a duty I signed on for!
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LDones
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Quote:
Now I wonder: how long before someone turns these events into a plugin?
Ha. I was thinking about it - especially given all the record-keeping I did.
For any still interested, the Trial Record is still available @ http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles/HogithumHall/trialrecord.htm. I thought it appropriate, story-wise, to change the index afterward.
--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
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Nigedo
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Quote:
I think the events shown this day revealed to true colours of Vehk!
True. He has shown himself Dunmeri and discharged his vengeance and his last duty as Vehk and Vehk, with deceit and secret murder according to the codes of Mephala his fore-image.
Who could surpass even the sphere of that Daedra Prince but sweet Vehk, now mythic Thief?
--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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CarlCX
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I watched and wept from the background. I weep for Stri'Ker and I weep for Azura, and I weep for all that was before that we have only today discovered.
But now, the weeping is done. Death, tragedy and deception is finished; now, let us drink to the future and enjoy all that is yet to be.
And let us enjoy being mortal enough to know yet know what it is.
ooc: God bless all of you people, devs and fans alike. You astound me.
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I must say though to put this aside once and for all that my suspicions proved true almost to their word. 
The consequences of the showing of Vehk's true persona and the banishment of the Daedra Lord Azura have yet to be seen.
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Who I am does not matter for I am naught but the essence of what has gone and come as well as the void that protrudes from the depths of one's being.
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Nigedo
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And raise a goblet for Ainoryl, who in devotion to his master gave his own life too.
--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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mafafu
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Diviner
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How. About. That.
What fun.
May you all live in interesting times.
--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention. - Tom Peters
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TSBasilisk
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Diviner
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:whistles: I never expected THAT! I would have just messed it up if I had been here. Thankfully, my spell dropped me in a dungeon ruled by a Horned Reaper, so I had to escape from it before returning.
As to the punishing of Vivec: We have no say in this matter anymore. He has proven that, although his powers are diminished, we have not the strength to give him justice. For his crimes, death will be the absolution, and that death will come, because with the breaking of Kagrenac's enchantments, Vivec has allowed himself to be doomed. Akatosh will claim him once he has aged to the right time.
--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft
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All Hail Ainoryl!
*drains the cup at one draught
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All hail Stri'Ker!
*drains another cup
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Attrebus
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Hitman
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Indeed, to Ainoryl and Stri'Ker!
--------------------
Remember the 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk.
A day devoted to Scholarly Pursuits and Truth.
And Stri'Ker, who died for these - May he be remembered always.
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LDones
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Disciple
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Quote:
May you all live in interesting times.
I was thinking that very thing throughout the Trial.
Still OOC. I have to give my character a rest for now. Having your shadow torn off by a Dwemer Tonal Chainsaw and then used as a weapon to help murder a god can be a bit on the taxing side.
Until then, let's just say Master D'Onus has made an ascension of sorts into a crazier world. His researches are the better for it.
--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
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That.,.. was... *speechless*... a truely wonderful final!
I dont know if I should hate or love Lord Vehk. What he did, was rightful, but his mention of the empire disturbed me. The methods how he did this I couldnt care less for, but the intentions... wlel in the end I must say I cheered and still cheer fo what he did.
Really, reading this, I must say Nazz' comment during teh fight summarised best what I thought, too, lol. The native gods (ALMSIVI, god of worms) from Munuds have won against a god from oblivion....
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Serving honourably in House Redoran
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Master Basilisk, I wouldn't write Vehk off just yet. He's a tricksy fellow and he knows his own walk. What makes you think he can't steal again what he stole the first time?
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Susano
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What happens to Ayem/Almalexia and Vehk/Vivec now? And even mroe intesrtingly, Azura? And what does the public experience? Will they find out about the dissapperance, so to say, of Azura?
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Serving honourably in House Redoran
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Past experience would indicate you can go and tell everyone about Azura, but no one will believe you!
Really remains to be seen. Almalexia's dead, though, and Vehk seems to have left for other climes.
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Archeopterix
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Protochicken
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Quote:
Past experience would indicate you can go and tell everyone about Azura, but no one will believe you!
Really remains to be seen. Almalexia's dead, though, and Vehk seems to have left for other climes.
Hehehe Allie
Naughty Vehk though 
--------------------
Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?
Morrowind Avatars
Chatroom!
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selunatic2397
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Acolyte
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I waited over 21 days for...THAT? Azura sounded like a braindead zombie  I haven't played the earlier games, all i know i get from Morrowind, so none of this made any sense at all to me. If vivec is mortal now and Azura is at full power, she should be able to waste an entire city...a poet shouldn't stand a chance. Going by game stats for vivec he isn't beyond anyone power to slay...I gotta back a previous poster whose name i forgot, ya'll just stood there in starry wonder as you let him butcher the patron of the nevarine...BAH i waited so long for THAT???
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Does anyone here know why my swiss army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
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selunatic2397
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Acolyte
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sorry double post..my bad 
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Does anyone here know why my swiss army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
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WormGod
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Lord of the Dance
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Fun stuff. Glad everyone was a good sport about participation.
Who knows what might pop up next. Just gotta keep your eyes open, I guess.
Till then, the God of Worms must be put back up on the shelf, with His ever watchful eye open.
--------------------
gary noonan
animator guy
bethesda softworks
"too weird to live, too rare to die...."
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tegger
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Creepy ShadowLady
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Quote:
Till then, the God of Worms must be put back up on the shelf, with His ever watchful eye open.
Awww, I have to admit... I was beginning to like the ol' fella.
--------------------
Everyone always overgeneralizes everything entirely too much.
~TSL )O(
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CarlCX
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There were extenuating circumstances, to say the least. But I do believe we can judge gods. I am not certain of my own personal feelings on what has happened: it will take time to gather them and mend the wounds of the past days.
But regardless, Azura will be back, no? Even by the power of CHIM, Daedra are protean and thusly beyond being unmade, I believe...
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selunatic2397
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Acolyte
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Sounds logical
--------------------
Does anyone here know why my swiss army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
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Iudas
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Disciple
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The whole thing was superb.
Lurking throught all of it and loving every moment.
You folks did great work.
Thank you.
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Well done everyone... You certainly shocked me, and I have lots of questions about the stuff I don't understand (most of it ) but I'll just leave them for now. Well done to all who took part
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Morrowind Chat
<Umi> How is my butt weird? >:|
*Pacle gives AMP a plaque* - YAY PLAQUE FUZZY YAY KIWI!!!
The Darkened Shrine
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Ah, but I assume some people wil notice a certain alck of azura-ness next hogithium day, heh.
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Serving honourably in House Redoran
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One thing I was not to clear about in the proceedings was Vivec's quote:
Quote:
Perhaps it's how my brother felt, folding into himself like a prism until your darts were thrown, nymic sel sulimet
elhnodidan, thought thinking thought.
Is this to suggest that Azura was directly/indirectly responsible for the passing of Sotha Sil? Or am I completely off the mark and he said something completely different than that?
And another thing. Was the Spirit from the Star some random follower of Clavicus Vile or was it Almalexia? I thought for sure V told B in Hall 2 that he was wrong in thinking that whoever was contained within was either S or A. But then again, V is known to not always be so... forthcoming
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Best puns in town!
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I got that impression as well Nael. I also thought Vivec was implying that Azura was responsible for Almalexia's madness.
About the spirit, I think it was just some sevent of Viles whom wished to join her master in Oblivion but Azura wouldn't let her. Perhaps we will learn more about this spirit in the future, though probably not.
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The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
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The more I think about this story thread the more I get reminded about a bad game of dungeons and dragons where the dm changes the rules about halfway through because he can. The first part made sense according to what I know from the imperial library and my copy of morrowind...then it all changes to confusion. Azura sounded like a brainddead zombie rendition of RainMan and none of my friends [who game and mod more than I'll ever do] had any idea of what I was talking about. the pre-existing soul in Azura's Star that I think is implied that she stuck in there has me going "Huh" ? Boy am I glad that Morrowind is only a single player game and this was just a roleplaying thread because it left me confused, annoyed, and sorry that I waited over 21 days for what seemed to be the game designers pulling what my first dm used to do. Play fair guys, no more hidden truths...it gets real annoying
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Does anyone here know why my swiss army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
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Mystery is one of the many spices of life and our friends at Bethsoft know this well  . There are some things we are meant to know and other things that would drive the uninitiated to madness. The dealings of Gods are one of those things that would tax the mortal mind and is not meant for your consumption.
Just be happy Bethsoft cares about us enough to have given us this small taste. What happened this Hogithum was pretty substantial if you think about it. It sounds the first shot in a battle that will involve every rock and tree, and living beings and the denizens of Oblivion alike on Tamriel. Patience friend, patience .
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Best puns in town!
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Well, that was something ... I thought this trial to be a mere masquerade, but I was nowhere near guessing how it would actually end.
Lord Vivec was resplendent in every aspect : a well-learned child of the teachings of Veloth and the Codes of Mephala, as Nigedo wisely pointed out - and a child who managed to murder his father, his master and himself as it is said all should do in order to walk the right way. Many mysteries were evoked during the grand climax of this night of Hogithum (maybe the last one), and there's still much to ponder - especially about the "crimes" of Vehk and Azura ...
But most importantly, and I am surprised almost no one mentionned this before, Vivec performed CHIM right before our eyes ! Just as he had announced during the "trial", he showed us the Tower once again, providing us with something unique in that field of study, that is, direct visual experience. For a fraction of eternity, analogies became real again, and we saw a mere spear become Muatra and stuff the mouth of a Lord of Oblivion (or perhaps the other way around) - now we know without possible doubt of the reality of the path of CHIM, one that can bring a mortal, deprived of the power of the Heart of Lorkhan if not of what it had brought to him, to surpass a Daedra Prince in Hir own Sphere, and to defeat another by forcing upon Her the lock She had escaped at the time of the Compromise.
Two shadows of darkness and blood, two lovers of old cursing their beloved ones, but only one Tower - the Thief has won, and, as such, has all my renewed respect. Although I will never get to know whether he really was a formidably egotistical crazed demigod, the most altruist prophet and best actor ever, or perhaps some strange mix of both ...
Anyway ...
All hail the braves who died for what they thought or knew to be right !
And, naturally, hail to the Thief !
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School of Vivec
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Hail to the Thief!
I've been telling you guys for months that Vivec's a wicked, black-hearted creature, but did any of you listen?
Allie was never sure what he was up to, but she was certain he was up to something. At first she thought it was an elaborate suicide by cop, by way of forcing the witnesses to murder their parents/gods and move to the next level, but then she started wondering. And when he came to the summoning in armor... whatcha planning on fighting, Vehk?
For what it's worth, selunatic, the setup was there... some folks on the thread came dangerously close to guessing what was going to happen.
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I certainly had my suspicions prior to the Summoning, but I chose to give Vehk and Ainoryl a little "benefit of the doubt." I now see that I waited too long to react. Eventually, when I was in contact with Attrebus, we decided to react. Unfortunately, Vehk was too much for us to handle.
OOC: I didn’t want to ruin the role-playing. Even though I’m a little disappointed in not hearing the answers to the questions, I am pleased with Vehk’s performance. After all, it was his show. Once again, nice work, MK!
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~B
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library
Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer
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I listened to your opinion on vivec Personally after i found out that he killed Nerevar, I have never trusted him. Since everyones character in Morrowind is supposed to be the reincarnation of Nerevar I decided that in the interest of roleplaying, I would hold the mother of all grudges against him and the entire tribunal.
*goes off planning to soultrap vivec and bind him into the first chamberpot he can find....bwa ha ha ha ha...cough...choke*
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Does anyone here know why my swiss army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
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Quote:
The more I think about this story thread the more I get reminded about a bad game of dungeons and dragons where the dm changes the rules about halfway through because he can. The first part made sense according to what I know from the imperial library and my copy of morrowind...then it all changes to confusion. Azura sounded like a brainddead zombie rendition of RainMan and none of my friends [who game and mod more than I'll ever do] had any idea of what I was talking about. the pre-existing soul in Azura's Star that I think is implied that she stuck in there has me going "Huh" ? Boy am I glad that Morrowind is only a single player game and this was just a roleplaying thread because it left me confused, annoyed, and sorry that I waited over 21 days for what seemed to be the game designers pulling what my first dm used to do. Play fair guys, no more hidden truths...it gets real annoying
Your right it wasn't very open role-playing at all. It was more like a multi-DM driven event and with a singular purpose. When My character challenged the authority of the appointed Tribunal I got a pretty nasty pm from Vehk.
[deleted- it is in very poor taste to paste in private messages from people anywhere public without their permission -Archie]
I'm sorry personally, given the same situation my Lawful Character probably would have objected in any court in any nation in any Fantasy Land where he sees the Judges having close relationships with the accused. It wasn't just Allie that was the main reason for my character challenging the authority, it was many circus events that lead up to that. Also, note that my character believe none of the Tribunals objected to anything Vehk wanted in the court which is another good reason.
If I was playing a more chaotic character I probably would have enjoyed what was going on throughout the entire event. So I appologize for pissing anyone off OOC, this was not my intention.
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Alchemy Machine Mod in Artuzu - screen shots
Dwemer Links
Prof. of Academy for Dwemer Studies
Member of Team Pheonix
Edited by Archeopterix (03/23/04 02:38 PM)
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Thanks Aquiantus for sharing your pm and clearing up some of the smoke and shadows. It did look like vehk was running the show, but I didn't realize to what extent. During the final moments when the few tried to stop the assault on Azura vehk responded like my first dm did and slapped them down. I am sorry you got expelled, but proud that you stood up for what your character believed in. You did a darn fine job of roleplaying and I award you with not one, but three trophies
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Does anyone here know why my swiss army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
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*waves*
Heya, that was very neat. Even for those of us that weren't a part of it it was a rather interesting read. I can't say I really feel sorry for Azura though, for.. um, whatever happened. She probably deserved it.
(And if this thread was supposed to be still part of the story and I'm messing it up, please feel free to hit me with something for being dense like ebony)
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The never was a fish.
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Nah, the story's over. There's still a bit of roleplaying going on, but for the most part the comments are OOC and discussion about the story. Even Vehk is OOC now (see page 1).
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention. - Tom Peters
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Wow, great thread(s). Lots of reading across the threads, and Vengence Long Delayed was good. So Vivec agreed to a trial to have Azura summoned to exact revenge on her.
In my game, I feel that I must avenge my patron
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Suldrun, Breton Wizard
Mages Guild Arch-Mage, Great House Telvanni Archmagister
Imperial Cult Primate, Temple Patriarch
Thieves Guild Captain
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Azura most definitly deserved it. EVERY Daedra Prince would, IMO....
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Serving honourably in House Redoran
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In your opinion...but not in mine.
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Does anyone here know why my swiss army knife has a pharmaceutical spatula?
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Selunatic, this is just proof that even gods have emotions. Vehk got revenge, whether Azura deserved it or not doesn't matter. Vehk thought she did.
And yes, it was run by the devs, but this was more of a play than roleplaying.
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Morrowind Chat
<Umi> How is my butt weird? >:|
*Pacle gives AMP a plaque* - YAY PLAQUE FUZZY YAY KIWI!!!
The Darkened Shrine
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CarlCX
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I'm curious, Susano: what makes you say that?
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If you ask me, the various daedra have meddled in mortal affairs for far too long. They ra eno gods, they simply have more power, and yet they are worshipped.
I think thats both just wrong.
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Serving honourably in House Redoran
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One could argue that being a being of otherworldly power sufficient enough to meddle in mortal affairs (in addition to the immortal, extradimensional, never-dying thing) MAKES one a god. But, regardless, I do have to say:
If you're condemning the Daedra for using their powers to meddle in the affairs of mortals--how can you support Vivec, who has done the exact same thing?
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-----IN CHARACTER-----
An unfortunate and sad ending to the tale, indeed.
Instead of truth and resolution, all we once again witness is a twisted game between beings so alien that neither of them should foul Mundus with their presence in the first place.
Are we nothing but pawns and amusement for the "inconstant spirits" of Oblivion? Or are we so desperate to be observed that we must invent our own gods?
Perhaps the answer had been with the Dwemer all along. The only way for the mortals to truly prosper is to reject the concept of worship altogether. Not to substitute one power to cower before with another, but to follow reason and logic, and forge our own path.
My faith, whatever was left of it, has been shattered in Hogithurm Hall. To any being beyond Mundus seeking recognition as a god I say: Damar Stiehl, the Elite Battlemage, henceforth follows none.
--------OUT OF CHARACTER-------------
Marvelously played, everyone. I only wish I was more of an Elder Scrolls scholar...
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I will burn you to ASHES!!
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Ah, but thats the difference. Vivec is a NATIVE god, once (or rather, in the replaced timeline) Dunmer himself. He is no foreign entity, at least not entirely.
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Serving honourably in House Redoran
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Shouldn't that make his crimes all the worse, though?
See, this is why, after a lot of contemplation, I'm still judging against Vivec (and doing a writeup of this). The Daedra were formed. They were created by the blood of Padomay. Their nature was set from the moment they were 'born': good, evil, observer, activist, God of War, etc. Mehrunes Dagon was born as Mehrunes Dagon; as far as my research can tell, his motives and spheres of influence were pre-set.
Vehk had a choice.
He was not constrained by the pre-set limitations of the Aedra or Daedra, or restricted to a particular sphere of influence. He was a free god. He could have taken any route with it, could have done all sorts of noble things.
I've always stood by a fact of the universe: The Aedra have the staggering mysticism, the Daedra have the tangible influence, and all in all, the mortals of Mundus are more powerful than either combined, because they have the one thing neither faction can lay claim to: Potential. The Aedra and Daedra do not ascend or descend, do not switch spheres. They act within their boundaries. Mortals have no such bindings: we have free will. The will to do right or wrong, to achieve or falter.
Vehk was a living example of this, and unfortunately also an example of its fallacy. Vehk the mortal had the free decision in terms of his path, and he chose to do wrong. He murdered Nerevar, he stole the godhood, and even then he became a god without the spherical limitations of his peers--and even with that, he retained his black heart. We saw the living example of it Hogithum Hall.
Azura did not choose her path and existence. She chose her actions, yes--but her actions were, at least to some degree, dictated by the nature of her state of existence.
Vivec had no pre-set nature--and thus, had no such excuse.
Do you truly prefer the devil of choice over the devil of circumstance?
[edit: typos]
Edited by CarlCX (03/24/04 06:24 AM)
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In Character:
Well, I suppose that does it, for me as well in fact. I am leaving this place now, for my duty is complete. Vehk has been shown as who he is, and the mouth of Azura has been "stuffed with birds". I pray continuously for the Dunmer people, for now they have been very much stripped of their gods. Azura has been cursed by her people, and has been sent back to Oblivion with the greatest humiliation any Daedra Lord can receive.
Vehk is hopeless. He demonstrates what I've said a thousand times over, all of his "Tower" ramble only was accomplished off the backs of his fellow mortals (yes I say it again, fellow mortals). Yet he lives, yet he is still mad, yet he is still doing damage to himself and everyone else. He is so torn and twisted he has become no better than a Daedra.
Speaking of which, on that note I will say lastly and only this: Behold what the Daedra represent and delight in. If such is what they do for pleasure, how can they be trusted?
Yet there is hope as opposed to what Master Stiehl would say, the Dwemer fell because they weren't enough. They couldn't take on the responsibilities of the power they so rashly seized. No mortal can. Do not be so quick to focus on the wiles of such as the Daedra that you distrust someone trustworthy when you see them. As the ordinators of Vivec would say, "Trust in gods and justice." The heart's desire is a trustworthy higher being. Do not deny yourself that in a lustful fit that leads to nothing but Oblivion (which is where it came from).
I leave you all with these thoughts. May they lead you to something beyond what is possible on your own. Blessings of the One in Eight, blessed above all, be with you. One Anu, one Padomay. Mundus is the test, Anu is hope. The Endeavor is yet the trap. Trust in Him, and be content.
*speaks a few words, and vanishes
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Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
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You think in terms of morale, and ethics. But who made up this ethic? The gods - so the Daedra and Aedra? If you then judged them by this, you would be trapped in a case of circular logic.
Maybe it is becasue I am Dunmer <OOC: speaking IC, that is, heh>, and because the typical stereotpyes are true, but I think in terms of use and profit to the world.
Oh yes, the Daedra are born of Padomay, and thus just happen to HAVE the changing part of the universe - but that does not amke the situation better for mundus. Nonetheless Mundus shoudl shield itself against Daedric manipulations.
Besides, every mortal, too, has a personality. If you excuse Daedra Princes by their "pre-set nature", I must claim this pre-set nature for mortals, too - as said, we call this personality. And I still mantain that ALMSIVI has done more good than bad, by far. That they had free choice makes them even more likeable, in my opinion.
But that is not even my point. My point is that native gods like ALMSIVI are mundus' weapon and shield against daedric, that is, foreign, manipulation. It does not matter how justified the Daedra are in manipulating us - it harms us, thus we need to act against it, evrybody according to his or her abilities. And of course, a god has huge abilities compared to us mortals!
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Serving honourably in House Redoran
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Good laugh there. How can a citizen of an Empire founded by trahison against a Moon, half-death of the Sun, lies to all men and usurpation of the power of the Anumidium ever try and judge Vehk for what he has done ?
By the way, before even trying to inflict charges on a Dunmeri god, you should take in consideration the particular ethics of the Dunmeri people : Dunmer have always known of the darker side of Vehk as inherent to his personality and accepted it as part of his being - he calls himself the Thief and his Anticipation is Sex/Murder - this is no big news to find out he actually has a dark side. He stole, he murdered (name one single hero who never did, anyway) and taught us all a valuable lesson doing so - as for stealing Godhood, more people than you might think (in fact, a whole half of a very old schism between Man and Mer) view it as the actual purpose of Mundus, although the means used by Vehk to perform this weren't the most glorious ones.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School of Vivec
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I don't understand the purpose behind trying to use the opinions of a race, school, religion or political faction to justify or deride an opinion, nor do I understand attempting to not make an ethical judgment based on the fact that our existence was created by the Aedra.
Are you all so centered on the forces both mortal and immortal surrounding you that you're content to let them make up your minds for you?
I am in the minority, I realize, and all are by far entitled to their personal beliefs. Mine is simply that ALL living beings, regardless of their stature, position or plane of existence, should be held accountable for their misdeeds. The only reason I have leniency on the Daedra and Aedra is that they did not create the roles they serve--they were born TO serve them. It is their mental, emotional and spiritual nature to act as they do. It does not absolve them of responsibility for these misdeeds: it simply earns them a degree of leeway.
Think of it as an analogy: you may be against killing, but you would not stop an alit from eating a guar; it is the natural order of things. However, if one alit were to eat ALL the guar, it would have to be stopped and dealt with accordingly. Such is similar to the Daedra. It is their place to wield the powers of Oblivion, and in general they do so without incident. When they do overstep their boundaries, however--when Mehrunes Dagon attempts to exterminate a faction, when (if you believe she did) Azura curses an entire race--there must be intervention.
The reason I hold Vehk in contempt further than any Daedra is that, as stated before, his were choices of free will. He was not born into godhood, his hand was never forced by another. The Daedra, be it by Anticipation or by birthright or simple twist of fate, gravitate naturally toward a greater good or a greater evil. Their actions are their responsibilities; their motives are not. Vehk crafted both for himself. He knew the difference between good and bad, else he would not have attempted to deceive anyone as to the nature of his crimes.
His Anticipation is no excuse, because he himself crafted that Anticipation.
Many consider him a hero. I do not. To me, he is no God, CHIM or otherwise: he is Vehk, murderer.
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Quote:
It is their mental, emotional and spiritual nature to act as they do.
An argument could be made that the same is true of people. I don't really agree with that argument but it can be made nonetheless and it does have its merit.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention. - Tom Peters
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I tend to be of the mindset that the Daedra's actions create their spheres rather than their spheres dictate their actions.
As for your analogy I prefer a much more preventative nature. I would rather the Daedra see that we will not be pushed around and that we can and will exploit their weakness if need be, in an attempt to keep "all the guars from being eaten". Rather than let the guars be eaten and then apply a punishment.
The only thing I have and will ever hold against Vivec is his love for the Emperor.
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The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
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Good post, CarlCX.
I disagree, and here's why: what Vivec did, his primary "crime" from which the others followed, was refuse to admit that the gods - Aedra OR Daedra - had the right to command mortals. You're spot on when you pinpoint free will as the issue here. Every race of Tamriel willingly abdicates its free will to some outside power. Why? Despite what Girai would like to have us believe, the Aedra are not better than men.
Yep, Vivec is guilty of the charges brought against him. But no one has asked the most important question: who made the laws? And why should we follow them?
Let's look at Nerevar. Given the Tools, at a time when his people had been nearly obliterated, he was unwilling to make a decision about them. He asked his advisors; but ultimately he wasn't willing to trust any mortal. He called for help, help from a daedra. The one thing we know for sure about daedra is that they have no connection to mortal existence. They are the ultimate disinterested parties. Why should Azura get to decide what happens to the Chimer? To any mortal?
Why does Vivec NEED an excuse?
That's not the whole story, of course... only half of it. The other half is that Vivec was a desperately flawed mortal who immortalized his flaws. Not the right way to go about it. But the effort remains heroic.
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An argument could be made that the same is true of people. I don't really agree with that argument but it can be made nonetheless and it does have its merit.
It's true, but not to the same degree. People do have given natures, and they tend to act within them. The difference is, with people, it's just that--a tendency. People have the potential to become something other than what they are: a murderer can find Stendarr and mend his ways, a priest can lose his faith and begin a life of hate and crime. The son of a netchiman can attain godhood. Their tendency does not clasp them to a set path or attitude.
Daedra do not seem so malleable: their actions are confined to their Anticipations, their Spheres. You would no sooner see Hircine practicing vegetarianism than you would see Mehrunes Dagon handing out flowers to his enemies, or Sheogorath preaching the virtues of common sense.
The animal comparison is not absolute, for the Daedra are sentient, and thus responsible for their actions. The only way to make them a lesser evil in any given situation is to compare them to a God of Free Will who still chooses a darker path. We happen to have seen the darkest moment of the only one.
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I tend to be of the mindset that the Daedra's actions create their spheres rather than their spheres dictate their actions.
As for your analogy I prefer a much more preventative nature. I would rather the Daedra see that we will not be pushed around and that we can and will exploit their weakness if need be, in an attempt to keep "all the guars from being eaten". Rather than let the guars be eaten and then apply a punishment.
The only thing I have and will ever hold against Vivec is his love for the Emperor.
We cannot be absolutely sure whether the Daedra or Spheres came first. (OOC: I think it's TES' "chicken or the egg" quandary.) I believe that they were confined to Spheres from birth, however, given that they themselves were born of blood with temples: Padomay being confined to Darkness as it was.
Nazz, your concept--protecting all mortals from the influence of the Daedra--is noble, but the sacrifice you are willing to make overrides that nobility. The only man who has completely beaten the Daedra was Vehk--imagine if, all across Tamriel, EVERY mortal being acted as he did. Imagine the sheer destruction we would bring upon ourselves. To fight the Daedra for being Gods is as insane as the Daedra fighting us for being Mortals. We CAN achieve an equilibrium, it's just going to take many, many years...and unfortunately, an awful lot of bloodshed on both sides.
I am curious, however: if your sole complaint with Vehk is his love for the Emperor, does that mean you agree with the murder of Nerevar?
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Very good points, Allerleirauh, and thoughts very worth cultivating. In fact, it is just that kind of questioning of our "betters" that I staunchly believe WILL help us grow as a mix of races. And when examined in the light you shine on him, there is a heroism of sorts to Vehk.
The problem is, I believe that light is tinted by gold and gray.
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Yep, Vivec is guilty of the charges brought against him. But no one has asked the most important question: who made the laws? And why should we follow them?
...
Why should Azura get to decide what happens to the Chimer? To any mortal?
Why does Vivec NEED an excuse?
You have done an excellent job of noting the inherent truth behind Vehk's mission, and you are correct. There is very little reason (there is, I believe, some, for there will always be fear of beings with great power) that the world should live in servitude toward the Aedra or Daedra, and for bringing to light that we need not do so, Vehk did good. His "why" is solid.
But I disagree that it is the most important question. Any can wonder why; any can question all that is beyond them. The most important question is one that is so often glossed over:
"How?"
We ourselves are living proof that any can wonder why we obey the Aedra and Daedra, let alone worship them. The question of importance, then, is "How do you disobey them?"
You are correct in that Vehk accomplished something heroic: he proved that the Daedra can be overcome by a mortal. But he does not deserve praise. Rather, I would say, he deserves scorn--for he accomplished this by exploiting the worst parts of the mortal spirit. He murdered his closest friend to gather power, he lied to an entire race of people--and, even when given the power to rectify these mistakes, simply let them live on, that he might continue on his quest to gather more.
And even when once again returned to mortality, Vehk lied to, exploited, and used a court of mortals--you and I included--to gain back the power he desired. And to achieve it, he was willing to sacrifice any one of us, from his servant Ainoryl to a complete innocent (Stri'Ker).
You paint Vehk as if he were the shining example of what our free will can accomplish, and in a sense, he is, for he achieved CHIM, the ultimate manifestation of free will. I give him credit for this. But every detail, every piece of his plot, every step he took beforehand was founded on the WORST aspects of free will. He twisted the will of nearly every mortal who placed trust in him, so long as it meant benefit for himself in the end.
Should we aspire to earn what Vehk earned? By all means, yes. We should not be pawns of Daedra, Aedra or CHIM alike. But Vehk earned what he did by making us all pawns of his self-assumed rule. And that is the worst case for the power of our free will conceivable.
So, wise Allerleirauh, I believe you have it backwards. Vehk's end result was the heroic portion--it is his effort that was despicable.
If we are to achieve CHIM through free will, I pray we find a better way.
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You are correct in that Vehk accomplished something heroic
Reach Heaven
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for he accomplished this by exploiting the worst parts of the mortal spirit
By Violence.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention. - Tom Peters
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I'm not sure I would put it quite that way, but I believe we agree on essentials.
The trick, really, is transcending your nature... which isn't what Vehk did. He held on to his nature, the bad as well as the good. That's never going to work.
And... it's a mistake to glorify the beginnings too much. Despite the religious rhetoric, the Tribunal was born in pain and fear. A beloved father, Nerevar, abandoned them at the exact hour in which they needed reassurance; that's the true reason for the murder. Don't imagine for a moment that Vivec didn't love Nerevar, that the murder was the result of a failure of love; he did love him, and the murder was agony, and the agony taints everything before and since. It's the reason for the Armistice. Whatever may have come later, at the time of the decision Vivec was young, and not an intellectual; he wasn't thinking of any heroic defiance of the daedra, but of the fact that inexplicably, the lord he had always loved and trusted refused to claim the powers that might make him safe. The Dwemer were not defeated, remember; they disappeared; they might at any moment reappear. Imagine the looks exchanged among the members of the Tribunal, when Nerevar asked them to swear never to use the great source of power that lay in their hands now. Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Has he gone mad? Is the world coming to an end? And what are we going to do about it? Dunmer - or I should say Chimer - can only be pushed so far. Then their nature asserts itself.
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I do not suggest that we "fight" the Daedra because they are gods, but because they see us as their playthings. Vivec, and the unnamed ( they always are ) hero of the Battlespire before him have both sent a wake up call to the Daedra that we will not fit the role they think we were born to play. The Daedra are like the Dunmer child, mischevious, unknowing, and uncaring of the consequences of their actions. Some call them evil for this, while others call them master for the same reasons. While the roots of my people are intertwined with their influence they did not wish to see us grow as a people and therefore had to be cast aside.
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I am curious, however: if your sole complaint with Vehk is his love for the Emperor, does that mean you agree with the murder of Nerevar?
Yes. One died so that a whole race could Live.
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The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
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When you put it like that, Allerleirauh, I believe we agree on the facts of the case. It's just our reactions that are divided. Such is the way of life.
Nazz, I think a similar answer applies to our disagreement. I do not disagree that we should resist the Daedra, and even war with them should things grow too foul. I disagree with you on what you are willing to sacrifice for it. Some morals shouldn't be compromised.
And I think you have romanticized the murder of Nerevar. Having seen Vehk act as he has in the recent past, look back on the circumstance and his confessed murder, and ask yourself:
Did Vehk kill Nerevar for the Dunmer, or did Vehk kill Nerevar for himself?
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I think when you said that the Emporer told us mortals not to judge, I think you misunderstood what he meant.
""I would only say... let no mortal man presume to judge this immortal Vivec"
The key word presume basically means not for anyone to make an opinion based on non-facts, to basically assume before hearing evidence and without proof. Otherwise if the Emporer meant no Mortal not even the Tribunal to Judge Vehk then he would have said -let no mortal man judge this immortal Vivec- instead. Anyhow this seems to be a trial about misinformation, misdirection so maybe I misintepreted what the Emporer said. Maybe an English major can come here and specify since I know many will argue my interpretation of the Emporer's sentence was wrong.
As far as Vehk liking the Emporer, I think those days are completely over. The Emporer said "That Vivec has chosen to place himself in the hands of the Law pleases us, and does him honor. His acknowledgement and acceptance of the Law brings him within our countenance. We neither smile, nor frown, but say... let Justice and the Law be done."
I'll be suprised if they do remain friends now. Seems to me like Vehk used up whatever good faith he had with the Emporer to hatch this elaborate revenge. I have to hand it to him though, only the most craftiest of minds could have created this scheme.
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Alchemy Machine Mod in Artuzu - screen shots
Dwemer Links
Prof. of Academy for Dwemer Studies
Member of Team Pheonix
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No, the usage you want for presume in that context is this one:
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1. To venture without authority or permission; dare: He presumed to invite himself to dinner.
It's nice to be out of character here, so I can state firmly that I've talked to people behind the scenes about the Emperor's position. The Emperor never intended to permit a trial of immortals; however, there was some doubt about whether Vivec counted as an immortal.
As for whether they remain friends... the Emperor has the Elder Scrolls. He's bloody difficult to trick. Never assume you know how much he knows about something.
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Actually, Alle, wouldn't this have caught the Emperor by surprise for just that reason? He relies on the Scrolls for his information--and we know the Scrolls can't be attuned to a Dragon Break, theoretically because they're aberrations in the timeline.
So, while Septim is a clever man and I imagine he had some idea of what would happen, could he really have known?
And further, that was a thought I had: if the timeline in official measure is crafted by the Scrolls, and we experienced a Dragon Break...does that mean that it falls on us to be the sole carriers of the knowledge of what happened at Hogithum Hall?
Heavy, man, heavy.
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You guys rock.
OOC: I second that emotion. You guys made it fun. 
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No, the usage you want for presume in that context is this one:
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1. To venture without authority or permission; dare: He presumed to invite himself to dinner.
I think your misintepreting the context. Here are the definitions of verbs in the Dictionary.
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1. To take for granted as being true in the absence of proof to the contrary: We presumed she was innocent.
2. To constitute reasonable evidence for assuming; appear to prove: A signed hotel bill presumes occupancy of a room.
3. To venture without authority or permission; dare: He presumed to invite himself to dinner.
Your saying the Emporer says 'let no mortal [dare] to judge this Immortal Vivec.' Right the court was given permission and authority by Vehk already. So even if you argue that is what the Emporer intended in his speach then your arguement is null because that permission and authority was already granted and therefor there would be no daring or venturing because it is granted already.
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It's nice to be out of character here, so I can state firmly that I've talked to people behind the scenes about the Emperor's position. The Emperor never intended to permit a trial of immortals; however, there was some doubt about whether Vivec counted as an immortal.
The Emporer already counted Vivec as an Immortal he said "this immortal Vivec"
So there would have been no question if he was an Immortal, unless you presumed that the Emporer was lying about 'this immortal Vivec' not being an immortal. There is no question in my mind when the Emporer says this beautiful cloud I'll not question if it is beautiful or if it is even a cloud. And then I definitly wouldn't use his own words in a twisted jumbled way to prevent 'Justice.' So I hope that you were confused by that, or that I am wrong and that the Emporer wanted it the way these 'people' say.
So for example if the Emporer were to say -let no man presume to judge this rotten apple- I would not presume it to be anything other then a rotten apple. I don't think this means that if it turns out actually to be a rotten apple that we can no longer judge it, because it is already a rotten apple. Your basically trying to divide zero by zero. Can't be done sorry.
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Never assume you know how much he knows about something.
I'm not assuming anything, that is my whole point and arguement. When the Commander and Chief says that X=1 I don't try to divide it by 0 to make it a nullset, I say it is a 1 until otherwise instructed by him.
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Alchemy Machine Mod in Artuzu - screen shots
Dwemer Links
Prof. of Academy for Dwemer Studies
Member of Team Pheonix
Edited by Aquiantus (03/25/04 05:02 AM)
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Dude, I'm half past tired of arguing with you. If you want to know what the person who wrote it intended, pay attention. If you don't, believe what you want.
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Ah Shiggy, I don't know where you come up with that crazy stuff that you write, but it's great fun to read!
And you tried to make me go insane.
-Attrebus
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Remember the 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk.
A day devoted to Scholarly Pursuits and Truth.
And Stri'Ker, who died for these - May he be remembered always.
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I don't understand the purpose behind trying to use the opinions of a race, school, religion or political faction to justify or deride an opinion, nor do I understand attempting to not make an ethical judgment based on the fact that our existence was created by the Aedra.
This is not the Aedra/Daedra conflict, at least not to me. Im just as distrustful of the Aedra. ANY higher being from another plane is a potential threat to Mundus, but of course the Aedra do not really act, do not change things - that is the way of the Daedra. I do not say change is bad - I say change made by Daedra is bad, though! It does nt matter who crated us, either - now we exist, and now our primary cocnern should be how to defend ourselves.
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Are you all so centered on the forces both mortal and immortal surrounding you that you're content to let them make up your minds for you?
That is the point. I at least do not so. I do not necessarily agree with Vivec, or Vehk, either - but hes BY FAR the smallest evil.
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I am in the minority, I realize, and all are by far entitled to their personal beliefs. Mine is simply that ALL living beings, regardless of their stature, position or plane of existence, should be held accountable for their misdeeds. The only reason I have leniency on the Daedra and Aedra is that they did not create the roles they serve--they were born TO serve them. It is their mental, emotional and spiritual nature to act as they do. It does not absolve them of responsibility for these misdeeds: it simply earns them a degree of leeway.
Living creatures? Be careful! How do you define living? Sure we can interact with Daedra in a way, but so we can with, say magical streams and thelike.
Maybe the Daedra live, but they come from Oblivion, another plane alltogether. Maybe they live, but in this case it surely is a living so different from ours, that it IS another state as what we call "living".
However, youre talking about judging, and justice again. Justice is not the point. Oh yes, maybe it would be justified to be lenient on the Daedra, because, well, they are defined by their spheres and so on - but regardless, we have to defend ourselve here on Mundus. Our sense f jsutice shoud not render ourselves defenseless!
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Think of it as an analogy: you may be against killing, but you would not stop an alit from eating a guar; it is the natural order of things.
Yes, and if the guars were any intelligent they would band together, and drive out the alits, natural order or not. Honouring the natural order is not noble, not if it means "well, I accept the detah of my friends and brethren, because its the natural order".
Why do you think we chase away nix-hounds from our settlement, or kagoutis, or guars? They, too, hunt men and mer, that, too, is the natural order - yet we break them by killing all that could be dangerous. We rid pilgirum routes, or croassroads, if those animals are there. Not for their meat, then, but to disturb this natural order - to defend ourselves.
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Did Vehk kill Nerevar for the Dunmer, or did Vehk kill Nerevar for himself?
In the end, does it matter? He replaced Daedra worship with worship of a native god, surely the lesser evil, as said. This native god was him, yes, and that was his motivation, yes, but what counts is - in the end, it bettered morrowind. Nothing else counts. The means DO justify the ends.
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Serving honourably in House Redoran
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Very thoughtful and well-written response, Susano. I'm afraid that you and I, my friend, will always disagree on just what constitutes evil.
But it's nice that we have the freedom to decide for ourselves.
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Very interesting!! I lurked in the shadows the whole time. Great stuff(maybe you guys should do it again sometime)
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Victory requires no explanation, Defeat allows none.
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And you tried to make me go insane.
And damn near succeeded too. Heh heh.
You'll be glad to know that Gosleigh stopped running on the High Rock / Cyrodiil border, and is sleeping off the visions he had of deicide.
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He replaced Daedra worship with worship of a native god, surely the lesser evil, as said. This native god was him, yes, and that was his motivation, yes, but what counts is - in the end, it bettered morrowind. Nothing else counts. The means DO justify the ends.
Well, how can you be so certain that the Tribunal's usurpation of godhood was the best thing that could have happened to the Chimer? You can't be sure that, should Nerevar have lived, or other variations of reality occured, a better social/religious model would never have been implemented than the one under ALMSIVI. Maybe it would have been possible years down the road for Morrowind not to become part of the Empire (regardless of whether this would be a good thing or not for Tamriel, the majority of the Dunmer seem to think it would be good for them). The fact is, it would have been different, certainly, but I don't think there is enough information to automaticly qualify one "universe" as good and the other as "bad".
And I don't always agree that the ends justify the means. If it were so, I'd be rooting for the Dwemer to achieve their immortality/godhood/spirituality/whatever regardless of the cost to the rest of the world -- which I don't.
(And I know I'm playing the part of Devil's Advocate. )
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In the debating chamber of his mind a dozen emotions got to their feet and started shouting. Relief was in full spate when Shock cut in on a point of order and then Bewilderment, Terror and Loss started a fight which ended only when Shame slunk in from next door to see what all the row was about.
—Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic
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If I was Dwemer I certainly would do so! But as non-Dwemer I do not.
And I think Daedra worship is worse because, well, as said, I see the Daedra as a threat to Mundus.
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Serving honourably in House Redoran
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If I was Dwemer I certainly would do so! But as non-Dwemer I do not.
Exactly what I meant with the ends not always justifying the means -- some things just have too heavy a price to pay. I believe that had the Dwemer been fully aware of the consequences of their actions on Mundus (and not only when it came to their disapearance), they too would have thought better of the means they'd be using (not to say that they wouldn't have ended chosing the same course -- I can't predict what-ifs and could-have-beens).
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And I think Daedra worship is worse because, well, as said, I see the Daedra as a threat to Mundus.
There are always people ready to sacrifice all to gain more power, or knowledge, or simply to prove that they can -- denying the worship of Daedra wouldn't stop people from trying to summon the creatures from Oblivion, and would probably make it so they would be even more dangerous when crossing the borders of reality. Surely a controlled worship should provide a safer alternative to the peoples of Mundus.
Besides, I don't see how the Daedra should be considered that more dangerous than the Aedra, for instance, who are considered as part of Mundus. They are surely aspects of natural forces, taken to an extreme I grant you, but still present in reality. Order taken to an extreme is as damaging as Chaos unbound. And having one without the other would surely lead to an imbalance of the world. The worship of those principles is a way to keep them under control, and make them work for the people, IMO.
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In the debating chamber of his mind a dozen emotions got to their feet and started shouting. Relief was in full spate when Shock cut in on a point of order and then Bewilderment, Terror and Loss started a fight which ended only when Shame slunk in from next door to see what all the row was about.
—Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic
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*Slowly stands up, trembling*
My hands... they have the blood of a god on them. I was a fool to think that Vivec was a noble creature, one who had done much good to the world, but he has a heart blacker than even the god of the Dagoths! I have murdered Azura, and have released upon the world two demons that will blacken Nirn till the Daedra ride once again in our woods! I have killed! Not in self-defence, not in spite, but I have killed thousands in my curiousity. My sorrow is a sea, that will flood all of Tamriel, over Elf and Man and Hist. It is unending!
*raises hand to throat*
My friends will look out from their huts... but I shall not return.
*there is a scream, a ripping sound, and the corpse of Lugagius, Imperial scholar, crashes to the ground.
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________________________
Pyschopathic Travel Accesory
The Tribunal are not Evil, Godammit!
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* the librarian sobs uncontrollable *
I missed the Hogitum...
* tears are still flowing from his eyes, he says *
Great job all of you and greater praise to MK. You are still one of the ES developers for me.
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~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
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(ooc: no one seems to have anything to say to an in character suicide... seems only fair to acknowlege it!)
I am deeply sorry to hear this news. This is what comes of mortals treading too close to the gods... they get stepped on. Poor Lugagius; I fear his death will last far longer than Azura's. Daedra always return.
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Solyn looks up from a book he is reading and the papers he is scribling on, then continues reading and writing... but then looking up again, he stares at the form lying on the ground. After packing his belongings, he walks to Lugagius' body crouches down and picks up the blood stained hand. Patting it in a sympathetic manner, he mumbles something about cherishing a cloak.
These surrounding halls have been somewhat quiet of late; I've found them ideal for study... I'm afraid I've been a bit absorbed by them. Pardon, I have matters to attend to. I must go for the moment.
Solyn exits the hall
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"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
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Vvardenfell Tribunal,
Word has reached me regarding the events of your trial. To say the least I am not surprised at the actions of V. How could one hardly expect any less from a Thief? Or a Liar? Or a Murderer even? I do not Judge.
The minions of Azura are wild and confused when I summon them from their dark abode. They can hardly find direction. I suggest someone compentent enough in the Sorcerous ways summon a Winged Twilight for an amusing conversation. Is Azura gone? Her minions cannot answer that. Is Azura banished? They are silent. To cause a worse punishment to Azura is hard to concieve of. Her own land is no longer under her influence. What will the priests think?
Though I cannot see how much of an effect this will have upon Resdayn, I can't say I really care too much.
One question for you all though; Which is it? Banished or Dead?
-AG
Care of Tower Grimwald
Isle of Balfiera
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tegger
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Creepy ShadowLady
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Reged: 09/11/02
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One question for you all though; Which is it? Banished or Dead?
I say banished. Vehk said, "YOU ARE BANISHED FROM THIS STARRY HEART" -- which I took to mean banished from Nirn -- maybe even from the realm of the physical itself.
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Everyone always overgeneralizes everything entirely too much.
~TSL )O(
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Nael
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Curate
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Reged: 05/15/02
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Hey, I'm just surprised Azura had the guts. Get it?!
*laughs maniacally*
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Best puns in town!
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CarlCX
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Novice
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Reged: 08/07/03
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Theoretically, isn't it impossible to kill a Daedra anyway? That was supposed to be the balance of power between Aedra and Daedra; the Aedra have the greater power but can be undone, the Daedra have the lesser power but are protean and indestructible.
Regardless, going by every other time a Daedra has been struck down by a mortal (Mehrunes Dagon, Hircine), it would stand to reason that Azura will be back, she just needs to find her way back to her plane.
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tegger
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Creepy ShadowLady
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Theoretically, isn't it impossible to kill a Daedra anyway?
Yep, all evidence (so far) points to that conclusion.
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Everyone always overgeneralizes everything entirely too much.
~TSL )O(
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MK
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Novice
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You are still one of the ES developers for me.
Shucks. Thanks, Xan.
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zingbat
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Disciple
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I would like to clarify something about my behavior. I requested this trial but it was never with the intentions i would make you believe. So dont put the blame on anyone else except me.
Im not an Imperial officer or do i love the Emperor more than the prostitute in the nearest tavern or even Vhek himself or the gods. Im an humble member of the Bards guild and my role in society is to uncover the dust of soceity hidden behind all the closed window and doors and register all of it on memory stones.
Thanks to you and Vhek and some rather naive people my pockets are several millions of septins heavier. The Emperor was a clever actor and his subjects where payed to do their roles quite well. But the show was quite worth the effort. Heres what some of the grannies that watched the show have to say about it:
"I was brilliant, pieces of Deadra flying all over, bloody and tasty"
And another
"I wanted to see Vheks neck hanging on a rope but now i just want to see Vhek blowing up more Daedra."
And another
"That b$#$%# Azura got what she deserved, it remided me of myself when i was young sorceress, blowing orcs too pieces, with light bolts, in Daggerfall war. Those nogood orks, i dont know how the Emperor puts up with them."
What would you call the Daedra of Trickery and Deceipt for profit ? Anyway I dont think Vhek was too much bothered with people who use his own methods and let himself be used like a prostitute if this helps him achieve his own ends. After all he did what his anticipation would expect him to do. He knew of my intentions and he said nothing when I was hidding in the shadows recording everything in my memory stone side by side with that lunatic Sheogorath and the King of Worms (that part gave me the creeps).
Now its over. If you travel into the imperial city into the memorial walls building of the Bards Guild you can touch this stone and for a pitance of 1000000000000 septins you be able to feel and see how one of the most powerful magiciens of Tamriel was capable to perform the CHIM. An unvaluable experience, if you are a schoolar, that will raise your magic ability beyond your wildest dreams. But if you cant pay that small price for such knowledge then a copy of the original memory stone will be yours for just 1000000 septins. What are you wating for ???? Run for it, stock is limited !!!!
(in very small letters: a copy may have an unpredictable degradation of the emotions recorded on the original, no refunds given)
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Best idea I have. We is exchange the many dirty joke and then too much the laughing activity.
-- Veloxi
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